Building Resilience | Rob Graves on Vision, Fees, & Estate Agency for the Long Run

In this week’s episode of The Elite Agent Masterclass, we sit down with Rob Graves — veteran estate agent, business owner, and founder of Key Coaching.

With over three decades in the property industry, Rob shares the real story of building (and rebuilding) businesses, navigating market crashes, and developing the skillset to survive in an ever-changing estate agency landscape. From growing multiple offices to mentoring self-employed agents, Rob brings depth, clarity, and wisdom to the conversation.

💡 Key topics covered:

• The difference between being a great agent and a great business owner
 • How to survive when the market turns — and what to focus on
 • Why fees and pricing are the foundation of a sustainable agency model
 • Common mistakes that kill momentum — and how to avoid them
 • Coaching insights for agents ready to scale, stabilise, or reset
 • The power of vision, values, and process in long-term success

Whether you’re a new self-employed agent, a franchise owner, or an experienced business builder, this episode will give you tangible takeaways to raise your standards and future-proof your business.

New episodes drop Mondays at 6PM.

🗣 Hosted by Jack Durkin and Holly Boylan
👤 Guest: Rob Graves

Engage With Us
Have questions or topics you'd like us to cover in future episodes? Send us your thoughts and stay engaged with the Elite Agent Masterclass for more expert insights on transforming your career.

Connect with James on Socials:

Instagram | Facebook | LinkedIn


Connect with Jack on Socials:

Instagram | Facebook | LinkedIn


Connect with TEAM on Socials:

Instagram | Facebook | LinkedIn

Transcript

Hey Elite Agents, welcome back to another episode of the Elite Agent podcast. I'm joined today by co-host Holly Boylan and we've also been kind enough to have Rob Graves join us today as well, who has many years experience running an estate agency and also coaches estate agency businesses at the same time as well. So Rob, how are you? I'm very good, thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. I'm sure there's going to be so much we can talk about today. That's going to give our listeners some real great value. So to kick things off, firstly, Rob, tell us a little bit about your estate agency background. Oh, it's a long. How long have we got on this podcast? I know you've probably seen quite a number of different markets, haven't you, Rob? So obviously the market at present, I'm sure many will say, is a challenging market at the moment. But it's probably not the first time for you that you've seen a challenging market. No, this isn't really a challenging market, if I'm brutally honest in my world. So I started a state agency in the mid-eighties, nineteen eighties. And probably the biggest challenge I've ever bumped into is when the joint tax relief ended in August nineteen eighty eight. And it was like somebody switching off a tap. Literally, on the day, on the first of September, I rang the phone lines to check that they were still working. It was that quiet. Was that when interest rates were very high? Well, at the time, they weren't particularly high. But shortly afterwards, they went really high. I mean, they peaked at twenty percent. Hmm. Before we left the ERM. It was absolute carnage. People think four or five percent in today's market is tough. We lost probably twenty percent, twenty five percent off the values of property. Over the next year. So, yeah, it was really brutal. Absolutely. I think that's really I think it's always really interesting to speak to seasoned agents like yourself and see. Oh, Holly, is that what you mean? No. But to to be able to come out the other side of those markets and then look back at them and compare them to today, I think. The one thing that people really need to take away from that is that I can imagine the only thing that brought you back and kept going was just have an open mindset about what could possibly work to bring the change. Again, when you're going through it, you're just working hard. You're just trying your best. You know what it's like? When you get the opportunity in hindsight to look back, then that's different. That's a great opportunity. But I do remember we went after fees like the clappers. So we didn't do less than three percent. At one point, I charged somebody who was multiple agency five percent. Because we were doing so few transactions when we did a transaction, we had to make it count. And it's funny how people get that the wrong way around, isn't it? They think, oh, I'll drop my fees because nothing's happening. And I try to get it's completely the wrong way around. You actually need to up your fees when there's less transactions going on. You need to make more out of every deal that you do. yeah definitely we speak a lot about this around um agents really charging what they what they're worth um and um yeah making sure that you can provide the value to charge really strong fees and i think in today's market charging one and a half or two percent um seems in the current market like quite a strong fee um if you're charging three and five percent few years you know a few years back then um yeah it's a lot stronger than what we've seen in today's market i think the average fee is around one percent one point one possibly yeah i thought well i think last year i looked at it and it is instruction at one point one six but completions at one percent yeah yeah it seems seems that yeah it seems about what the average from many people we're speaking to it always seems to be around that one percent mark But again, my big thing is around business consultancy and you can't run a successful estate agency business while charging one percent. It just isn't possible. You can't reinvest in your business in the same way in order to provide the value for customers that you need to to stand out and all those sort of things. So Rob, question on that then. You've obviously done, I imagine, every role possible within your time in an estate agency before you obviously transitioned out. And what would you say was the hardest thing for you to get to grips with when transitioning into the business owner? Yeah. As a business owner, it is about transitioning into running a business. You don't realize when I've sat in corporate world for quite a while, how much is done for you, that huge great marketing department behind you, that HR department to tidy up, that sort of thing. I think you take a lot of that for granted. But actually running a business is a different skill set. I made every mistake going. You name it, I screwed it up. I read this on your About You section on your website, actually. It talks a lot about going from... And I think for a lot of people, there's many great agents out there. And I think for a lot of people, self-employed, as we know, I'm sure it's something we're going to talk about on today's episode. It's becoming more and more... it's becoming more and more popular. So many more agents are looking at self-employed and there's some great agents, but going from being a great agent to actually being a great business owner can be quite challenging, can't it? And I think for a lot of people, they don't quite understand how much is involved in running a business, especially if it's a completely self-employed business. So I know you talk a lot about that and I suppose being able to manage running a business whilst also doing the day-to-day of the business. What advice would you give people who are looking to go into self-employed estate agency or looking to start their own business or anyone that is currently navigating their own self-employed or estate agency business at the moment? What advice would you give them around getting themselves out of the day-to-day and becoming more of a business owner? So the first thing is you're absolutely right. It's a huge leap. It's a completely different skillset. So there are a couple of things I would do. I would invest some time before I started actually researching some of that. There's loads of stuff out there, whether it's books, podcasts, you know, have a really good understanding about what you need to do in business. And then like all the guys who are self-employed brokers, I started my business from my kitchen table. It was just me, you know, and off you go. And that first day is always really interesting. And I get you'll know this, Jack, that first day when you sit at your kitchen table and you open up your laptop and you go, okay, let's start. Thank you. Nothing's happening. You think, well, how do I start from here? And then off you go and you start learning. But I think it's about understanding that you have to invest some time in the business. And I would say to people, allocate some time to think about your business. You know, what probably, and I noticed this, that there's a, with the brokers particular, Particularly, you get going and off you go and you start at a rate of knots doing all these things that win you market appraisals. So I leaflet dropped, I knocked on doors. I was really good on social media with Facebook at the time. And off I went and I did all that. And within about three months, I became a victim of my own success and I was too busy and I stopped doing all of that. And the moment you stop doing all that, the market appraisals dry up and you're thinking, oh, no. Yeah, you just have to build in that consistency and you have to recognize it. So I think what I notice is that people don't employ help quickly enough. whether that's a VA or sales progression or even outsourcing the leaflet dropping. But whatever it might be, they don't seek help quickly enough. What... Rob, why would you think that is? Is there a reason you think people don't bring in business? Is it a case of not feeling as though they've got enough investment for it? Is it not knowing what support to bring in, not knowing what a role looks like, not knowing what support looks like? What do you think now? But for me, I was fearful. I was broke. Didn't have any money. There's no money. You spent it all starting a bloody business. And you're terrified. See, everything you spend money on becomes frightening. So for me personally, it was probably more about fear and overcoming that and realizing that you have to gamble on some of this stuff. You have to spend out some money in the hope that other money is going to come back in and cover the bill eventually. So I think a lot of it is fear. And I love what you've touched on there, Rob, because I think we've seen that a lot. We talk to a lot of business owners in the same sort of situation. It's like, well, no, I can't do that because of this. But they never look internally of what could provide the solution. And often that is fees. And then you start then getting into the realm of, we talk to our agents a lot about really measuring their time and impact and what's really the thousand pound and ten thousand pound tasks that they can be doing in their business to pay for those smaller things just to happen for them and offer them a bit of a leg of support. So do you think it's, Because I think there's a lot to unpack there because sometimes I do think that the fear is heavily linked to it. But sometimes I think business owners want to save the day themselves. Have you seen a lot of business owners that you've interacted with? Yeah, yeah. And I was the same. I wanted to be the hero of my own story. We all do. That's perfectly natural. So, yeah, sort of let it go, be with it. I think the fee one's a really interesting one because, again, Holly, I made every mistake. I charged too little. And then when I finally worked out I could employ somebody, I suddenly realized I was working to pay their wages and wasn't paying myself. and realized, shit, that don't work. I need to change that quickly. And the other one I did do is I did upfront fees. I charged people money upfront to get cash flow from day one. And it worked, whether it was part of a fee, a marketing fee. In some cases, I charged people all the fee upfront. I gave them a discount if they paid me upfront. And cash flow is the biggest killer of businesses. So looking into those options, I think, is a really good shout. What would you advise, Rob, if agents then said, well, no, I can't do that because I become no sale. No, I'm not no sale, no fee. And I run my business in a no sale, no fee because X competitor in my area is also no sale, no fee. that's the whole thing about not understanding how to run a business and how important cash flow is. You've got a contradiction in terms. Try and think of another business where they wait three months before they get paid. It's not. We're the only industries that operate in that way, aren't we? Rob, did you always have one free option or did you offer the clients a choice? I gave them choice. gave them a pay up front, pay at the end, and a halfway house, which was a pay for the marketing up front, and then I'll charge you the fee at the end. What was the most favorable option? There was an equal split right across the board. Everybody always asked me that. And it's amazing. Equal split. Some people got it. Some people you knew full well, I'm trying the market really. And I think, do I really want to be dealing with this? But the biggest problem with it was I shifted away from it when the business got bigger and more successful. And that was because the number of times I'd have a completion and think, yes, another completion. And then I'd go, oh, shit, they've already paid me. I think that's very honest and something that we'd all feel in that moment. So you've obviously transitioned out of the business now. Yeah. What was that like kind of landing on that decision that you was going to make that decision to leave? So I sold my business to my business partners. So from my point of view, the business for me probably got a bit too big. We went from, like I said, my kitchen table to eventually having over thirty staff, two branches, managed over a thousand properties in property management. It was, you know, turned over a couple of million. It was a big old lumpy business by the end. But I think I was getting diluted. It comes back to what you were saying, Holly. Maybe I wanted to be the hero again. And I didn't feel like, as it got more diluted, that it represented me. So it was sad to walk away, but I don't have any regrets. Not at all. That softens the blow. What was the team like that you had, Rob, with the business? Because that's a sizeable organisation. How many people did you have working with you? What was the team like? Like I say, about thirty staff in total, different managers would manage different departments, that sort of thing. I had having business partners is always an interesting one. I mean, I guess your brokers don't sort of suffer from that sort of thing. But trying to get when the three of us aligned, we were absolutely unstoppable. but we could waste weeks trying to get aligned. And I think that was probably one of the problems. I recognise that. So I would compromise so that we could all just move forward. But after a few compromises, you look back and think, hang on a second, this doesn't feel like me anymore. So that's ultimately what happened. I think that's a really honest reflection that you share it so openly. And also, I know you obviously referenced that brokers may not feel like that, but sometimes in the market, you do see self-employed agents leave brokerages and obviously transition to another option in the market and i think that alignment still is a big part to play with how the agents run their business with the brokerage and kind of what support they get in the back end so i think it's i think it's very transferable into all environments the alignment is key and the core values because you have to be really happy with what you're producing and a part of yeah i'm a I'm a great believer in being really clear on your values, mission, vision, and values. I don't think it matters how you pay people as in whether they're self-employed or whether they're staff. I think that is absolutely key to any business and getting alignment, not just with the partners, but with everybody is absolutely essential. Yeah, I think from a business owner perspective, if James is on the call, he'd certainly agree that certain times, I suppose when you get the business to a certain size, the decisions you make have much more impact on the business. So you really want to make sure that every decision you get, you get right. And And we'd be lying if we said there's times where we haven't probably moved as quickly as we would like, because we're both not sure, quite sure on the decision and probably sometimes not in agreement on the decision. It's made us move a little bit slower because we don't want to get that decision wrong. So when you get to a certain size and, you know, for the business, the decisions become more important, don't they? It's so important, Jack, to have speed of decisions, especially for small businesses. You're better off making the wrong decision quickly and finding out and going back and putting it right than you are to constantly keep waiting. You have to in our world, our size business. Maybe if you ran a bank, it's a different kettle of fish. You probably take your time and slow because it's like an oil tanker. But what makes our businesses good, competitive, is that we can turn on a tuppence. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I think that's one of the reasons we launched the Avenue Estate Agents the way that we did. Me and James wanted to run businesses, become self-employed agents ourselves, find out what wasn't going to work and what did work well, and then share those findings with agents so that they didn't have to go through the same challenges. Yeah. they didn't have to fail as many times as we did um so i know on your um website as well we talk about the certain thing you know you didn't get it right every single time so is there anything you could share um for people to avoid that you came across that maybe didn't work quite well and i'm sure we'll come on to the parts that that did work really well for you as well what what things would you recommend agents don't do uh yeah don't do low fees Say no to people occasionally. You know, when you first start, you say yes to everything. Yes, I'll do that. I'll drive off across the country to do viewings. Yeah, we've all got one of those instructions that we wish we didn't take on. Yeah. And I think you know when it's starting to go well when you start saying no to people. Don't measure the yeses. I think sometimes you need to measure some of the no's. And there you go. When we talk about measuring as well, that was something I was good at. I was a monster at having KPIs. I was absolutely honed in on data because data is the key to feedback. You know, I love that line about opinions. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one. Don't run your business on opinions. Run your business on clear data. And every time I was really good at processes and procedures. So every week I would sit down with my teams. So I'd have four meetings a week with each of the different four teams and would take one process. To start with, it was just about recording a process so that I had a process and procedures guide. But then when I finished it, we went back and started again and we made the process better. But every time you change a process, you need to put a measure in place so you can see, well, has it made it better or is it not? Was it worth doing? Was it not worth doing? Is it actually happening? Is it not worth that? And I was absolutely relentless at that. That's probably my forte. That's going to be music to Holly's ears. Holly's the queen of process. And she builds all the processes, systems and operations over at the Avenue Estate Agents. So I'm sure that's music to your ears, isn't it? Yeah, and I think it's often something that a lot of business owners can resist because they perceive having the business as having that freedom and they resist that structure and really taking the time out. you know, I see it so many times where you just ask one question and why do you do it like that? And you can kind of, and it's like not even an intrusive question. You're not even trying to catch them out, but I just want to be, I'm curious of why you're going about it in that way. And that look of like the rabbit in the headlights. Well, I don't know. I'm not holding you up to the state, but maybe we could trim that down or make it a little bit quicker because that's not what you do the job for. It's the minute things that they just, just happen. But it's not the enjoyment part either. So it's just the process. The one that gets me, Holly, is it's different here. Yeah. I have heard that line. I used to run seventeen branches in London and you'd turn up at one branch and they'd all tell me, oh, it's different here, Rob. It's different in this borough. It's different in this borough. Yeah. And I still hear it. I've worked in Scotland. I work with clients in Ireland at the moment. And I work with people in the States. I work with prop tech companies. And everybody tells me the same thing. Oh, it's different here. And it never is. I have to just nod and agree with them now. Okay, it's very different here. Tell me how it's different. Right, let's do it this way anyway. Okay. Yeah, and it's exactly the same. So obviously now that you've launched, how long ago did you launch Key Coaching? About eight months ago. And talk to us and our listeners about Key Coaching and why Key Coaching. Exactly, probably about what you guys are talking about. So I'm really pleased with this podcast. This is a gem. Because my whole thing is about the fact that really good estate agents go off and set out a business and set up a business and they don't understand it's a completely different skillset. So my thing is I don't try and teach people to be better estate agents. I sort of think if you're setting up a business doing it, you're probably pretty good at it already. My thing is about, well, I'll help you with the business aspect of it. I'll help you with some of the numbers, some of the processes, that sort of stuff. So that's my thing, if you like. That's what I enjoy doing. That's what I get involved in. I think looking at, so we'll come on to it, self-employed state agencies becoming more and more popular now in the UK. And I think that's probably one key ingredient that's missing from a lot of the self-employed models is there probably isn't enough support for those that are going into setting up their own business and becoming solopreneurs. And if they've got plans of expanding that business even further as well. How do they go about it and how do they scale their business from completely cold start all the way up to doing six figures or multi six figures? And how do they build infrastructure and support to grow and scale it? I think there's so many people that go into it, but there's probably not enough support to help them in building a successful business. Yeah, I think a lot of people are sort of finding their way. But as more and more people like you, Jack, are sort of learning that I work with. So who do I work with? Yopa Associates with their model, with their brokerage model. I work with another couple of companies who are setting up brokerage models. So I'm very familiar with it. And I work quite a lot with those guys. And I honestly believe. that somebody will do a million pounds turnover as a single agent broker at some point in the near future. Don't get me wrong, you probably need to get the average fee, quite chunky. But I believe if you set up the right processes, the right systems, have AI outsource things like sales progression and some other bits. And this is what they do in the States. Everybody compares us to the States. So I've worked with a couple of guys in the States. And they're not one person, they're a small team. So what's different, Rob, with estates, you having worked with those companies and companies across the UK, what's so different about the estates and why are we so far behind in the UK? Well, only because the brokerage model is far more advanced there. You know, they talk about, if you talk to some of the older guys there and they talk about the eighties, they used to have low fees, but it didn't suit the brokerage model. And what happened was that actually people wanted a broker to sell their house. They wanted a local expert who they really understood and really knew and was part of the community. So they did that, but to get it to work, it had to be reasonable fees. So that's why their fees are so much higher. I mean, their average fees are over ten, ten thousand dollars. Yeah. And they can earn on both sides. I wonder whether that will come to the UK. When markets change and buyers are finding it tough, that you start saying to people, look, you can pay me and I'll help you find somewhere. I think there's definitely an opportunity there, isn't there, for buying agents in the UK? Especially for those, you know, you've got high net worth individuals that don't really have the time to be searching. They want something specific and it might have to be off market that they can find the right property. And then you've got buyers at the other end of the market, first-time buyers, where it's the first time they've ever bought a house. And, you know, if they find one with an agent, then most agents where there's you know a lot of talk around certain agents pushing um services that benefit them so maybe having a buying agent can support them to make the right decisions on who they work with um so i think there's definitely a market for it in the uk yeah the buyer gets lumbered with the agent who happens to be selling their house yeah Doesn't mean they want that agent. They literally get lumbered with it. And as you rightly say, and you were being very polite, Jack. I'm not that polite. I know it was the corporate agents and they'll try. They're way more interested in selling them a solicitor referral and a mortgage and something else that doesn't actually help them move. Yeah, we spoke about it in a little bit more direct on a previous pod episode. You got into trouble. Yeah, I was actually part of both of those businesses. Yeah, I've worked corporate. I've worked for Barnard Marcus, who was part of the sequence group. And I worked in that way. It's interesting. It gave me such a good basis of understanding the business. So I think it's a brilliant place for people to start. So let's not knock it completely. But likewise, they've lost sight in the fact that they can make money out of estate agency. Well, seventy percent of their profits come from non estate agency activity. And that's where I think I was the same. I think going back to my previous experience, I'm grateful for what it taught me. It gave me structure. It gave me competitive edge. But I think it gets to a point where you can see that it's profit over people. And I think that's why I look about the self-employed models that are just growing because the agents there care much more about people and the clients. And I suppose that the money and the profits come secondary because they know if they get the people and the customer service right, then it's going to pay them back anyway. And obviously they're charging much stronger fees. So that's why, yeah, we love the self-employed growth. Well, I've seen, I think the statistic came out last week that self-employed agents in the UK are more likely to sell the home compared to... That was Chris, wasn't it? Chris Watkins came out with those. Yeah, and it's because the motivation is the livelihood, not just preventing... a bad review there's a lot more on the line for them to commit and equally with the less clients everyone gets better service and it's a shame that unfortunately that the corporate has to be the only entry point for people to really kind of earn their stripes meet people and learn on the job that kind of needs to know in my opinion now that we've got the self-employed market there needs to be something under it giving people a little bit more access and better training Well, in the States, what typically happens is the lead agent doesn't go and do all the market appraisals. He gives away or she'll give away a certain percentage of her market appraisals. She'll still take a cut on it, but she gives them away to somebody else so that they're learning and building up themselves their own know abilities and that sort of thing so i say that they the lead agent is although it's just one person to market it's it's not one person there's normally a team behind them Yeah. But this brings on to one of the things, because as you rightly say, with the brokerage model, I sort of think that the next step is that it's growing like the clappers, which is brilliant, giving lots of people great opportunity, which I love. But I think you need to understand that it's not going to be long before, you know, each town is going to have a pick. ten to twenty different individual brokers. And at the moment, they're all turning up saying the same thing. So they need to start getting their, you know, what makes them special? What do they want to be known for? Really clear. They're getting away with it at the moment, but they need to go through that bit. And it can't be like every agent says, oh, I'm trustworthy. Have you heard that? Every agent I've ever spoken to says, oh, what makes you special? I'm trustworthy. And what they don't say is, Personal comes up a lot as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All that stuff. And they don't realize, well, that's no different to anybody else. And actually, as far as the customer's concerned, it's a prerequisite. They don't employ somebody that's not trustworthy. Yeah. It's like, think it through, guys. Yeah. I think I would love to see more agents focus on a real niche area of their market, you know, whether it's high value homes or whether it's, grade two listed properties or certain agents might want to focus on apartments because they really know, they really understand leaseholds. Not in the current climate though, Jack. You can't have apartments with all the money at the moment. It wouldn't be the area of the market I would be in. But I know there's a couple of agents that do focus on that. Yeah, but I would just love to see agents really focus a niche in on a certain area of the market that they can really dominate, I suppose, as well. I think that's where agents can really make a difference. I think they often spread themselves too thin geographically, don't they? They don't need that many units. I think I saw a calculation, four thousand six hundred units, which is a relatively small sort of patch within a city or a town or something like that. It's not it's not the whole town. It's literally a patch within a town. It comes on to what you said earlier as well. And it's, you know, being comfortable saying no to certain things. Like if it doesn't fit what you're looking to do, then you've got to be comfortable saying no. I think it's so difficult if an agent gets an opportunity of a property that, you know, it doesn't quite fit their niche, but it's, you know, it's going to pay them well. And it's going to be another listing, another opportunity, it's another board in their area. They'll likely take it. Yeah. Well, again, the other one is when the client doesn't align as well. We've all had that client where you work your nuts off. You do a really great job. You do exactly the same as you do for everybody else. But they're just unhappy. Everything you do doesn't please them. And that's when you've got a client who's not aligned with what you do. So they don't see any value in all that hard work you're desperately trying to give them because they're not interested in it. They're not aligned in the same value set. But we've all had them, haven't we? We've all been guilty of it, definitely. I think you make a rod for your own back. I certainly have in the past, though. I spoke to one of our agents that we worked with recently, and he had a client who was like, I'm not sure where to take it. And I'm like, well, this is how I would quite often look at it. Are they agreed on the price you want to go on the market at? Is the fee what you want to be charging? And are they allowing you to market the way that you believe it should be marketed? If they're agreeable on those three things or at least two of the three, then it's worth taking on. If they're not going to put it on at the price you suggested or they don't want to put it on the price you suggested, they're haggling you on the fee and you can't market in the way that you want, then it's probably a sign that you should walk away. Yeah. I mean, price is a really interesting thing, isn't it, at the moment? We've got this huge debate going on about pricing. Was it forty three percent of the stuff on Rightmove doesn't actually sell? I mean, that is nuts. Isn't that crazy? I was looking through Rightmove with one of our agents this morning, actually, and there was two properties, actually. One had been reduced eight times, the other nine times. Yeah, just crazy. You see, here's the thing I believe with valuing a property. You cannot undervalue a property. As long as you market it properly and go through the process of marketing it fully, it'll end up at the market value. So it's impossible to undervalue a property as long as, again, as long as you market it properly. But it's dead easy to overvalue it. And it's far more damaging, far more damaging. But it's also far more damaging to the client and your business and your staff, if you have any, and your other clients. Because the one thing about that client that doesn't align is you are going to work harder. It's going to take more time. than what you do to all your clients. And the ones that are aligned, paid sacrifice essentially for that. And that's where I think people need to look at it a little bit more. Do you think the want to go in at a higher price is due to the fact that clients don't have a huge amount of commitment if it's a no sale, no fee? It's probably got a bit to do with it, but actually I think it's a lot to do with being lazy because it's an easy way of winning instruction. Yeah, I'm brutally honest. I think agents are lazy. You know, it's just easy, isn't it? Tell them whatever price they want to hear. Why bother having a debate for twenty minutes or change your process so that you present it in the right way or work really hard when you're on the sofa? You know, scrapping on the sofa. We've all done it. We've all sat there and gone, I'm not going to take it at that. stay that extra ten minutes in the fight you know I think it's lazy if I'm honest yeah you've got to choose you either have that hard difficult conversation at the very start or it becomes a really hard difficult conversation further down the line when you're having to try and reduce it or try and keep on to the instruction and stop them from considering going elsewhere But it's interesting you say at the start, because I believe when you're doing a market appraisal, when you turn up to do the market appraisal, you want to sit down with the seller then and there and explain the importance of pricing. The moment you do it after you've given them your price, you just sound like a cheesy, horrible estate agent with sleazy commission breath. So don't do it that way around. Sit them down first and say, let's talk about how important it is to price your property. Let's talk about the fact that forty three percent of what you see on Rightmove is not going to sell. And here's the deal. I don't deal with the forty three percent. I'm not interested in that. But if you're the fifty seven percent, I'm your guy because nobody's going to work harder for you to get you the best price and get this done. But I think you need to sit down with people and say that. The moment you try and say it after you've given them a price, it just sounds crap. It's interesting when you use the stats and the data to back that up. Yeah. But also I think that once there is that element, I used to always feel it in valuations, that once you've dropped the price, the price is the only thing they're listening to thereafter that bit. Because they're doing the silent maths in their head, okay, well, I expected that, and that works out there, and the one that I've seen down the road is – Fifty grand more. And so you've already kind of lost them in that moment because they're doing their own calculations. So that's a really great tip for the audience. There's a couple of things there, Holly, isn't there? The first one is we're really bad because we call it evaluation. So guess what? The thing they're waiting for when we turn up at the door. do all they care about is well what's the value you've called it evaluation for them you've written to them called it evaluation they're absolutely honed in on the price and it just just makes it hard work for yourself yeah definitely Definitely. Rob, there's been some really good stuff that you've shared. Is there anything, any advice that you'd give to anyone within a state agency right now? Anyone considering making a move in a state agency? Is there one piece of advice, maybe something you haven't shared already, that would be really useful? So, yeah, I was especially if you're looking to go into the broker is a self-employed model. I had an interesting chat with Alex Pelosi Buchanan from EXP. And I was I was chatting to him about his onboarding and that sort of stuff. And. And I said, what the first ninety days nowadays is quite predictable. You know, the patterns that these guys are going to go into and go through as they get on. But he said something really interesting. He said, actually, it's the ninety days before you start. And I thought, shit. So I can't claim it as my own, but for anybody thinking it, I think you need to look at the ninety days because you need to because everybody says when you first start, you send out your contact list. And I did that. Send a video to your contact list. It's the most well-known thing. But if you haven't spent ninety days building your contact list. You'll go out to less people. If you haven't started building your presence on the social media platforms, even with your current job, why not just do it and build your own, you know, self-profile of somebody in the patch in the area? I think there's loads you could do to prepare for the day that you go self-employed. Now, don't get me wrong. I didn't. I opened up my laptop and thought, shit, now what do I do? But I do think there's a lot in that. And I also think getting really clear on planning. We're in November at the moment. And in December, everybody's going to start planning. about where they're going, what two thousand and six is going to look, two thousand and twenty six, sorry, is going to look like. Went back twenty years then, that's wishful thinking on my part. But, you know, and everybody's starting to think about that. So whenever you start something venture like that, you really need to be clear on your planning. Get that, you know, Down to a T, really, so you know what you want to go for. And understand the vision. I love dreaming about where my business was going to go when I did it in a state agency. I love the ideas of what I can do going forward today. It's great to have dreams. It's what makes being an entrepreneur, self-employed, whatever you want to call it, so exciting, so much fun. It's an adventure. Go out there and enjoy yourself. having something to work towards. I think a lot of people get caught up though on having to make sure, is that definitely going to happen? Whereas just having some ambition, some dreams, some goals of where you want to take it to, like you said, it makes it fun, it makes it enjoyable and it gives you a bit of a path to work towards, doesn't it? Yeah, I do believe that I use the term have the end in mind because I think all too often we start out on journeys and we don't have the end in mind. Don't get me wrong, it changes over time and those sort of things happen. But I think it keeps you directionally correct in the early days when you can be a bit scattergun in your decision making and what you're doing. So that sort of stuff, I think, is really important. Perfect. So anyone thinking of making the move into self-employed estate agency, make sure you're thinking and planning well ahead of time, nine days before you consider doing it. I think that's great advice, Rob. If anyone is looking to connect with you, where do they find you? Well, I tend to be all over LinkedIn, so you can stalk me on LinkedIn. But otherwise, the website, keycoaching.co.uk. Reach out to me on that. That's all good. And the podcast? Oh, yeah. Don't forget the amazing podcast, the utterly indispensable podcast for a state agent, which, of course, has Jack on it soon. So looking forward to that episode coming out. Yeah, I enjoyed recording that with you, Rob. It was good. Yeah. Oh, this one's been great, hasn't it? I like these ones. Some of them I find a bit more structured. I feel like I'm in an interview. A nice chat, and I'm sure there's always some great content that comes out of it, and a few golden nuggets that come out of these. Yeah, we've all got stories to tell, haven't we? So, Rob, thank you very much for joining us. Those listening, I hope we've shared some great value, and we look forward to seeing you on the next episode. Thanks, Rob. Brilliant. Thank you, guys.