Listen First, Sell Better | The Power of Coaching-Led Conversations with Matt Selby

"How do I sell without sounding salesy?"

That’s the question Matt Selby has spent years helping business owners answer — and in this episode of The Elite Agent Masterclass, he joins James Humphries-Stone and Jack Durkin for a powerful conversation on selling ethically, effectively, and with emotional intelligence.

If you’ve ever struggled with fee objections, felt awkward about ‘closing’, or wished you could convert more clients without the cringe — this episode will give you practical tools and powerful reframes.

Matt shares his frameworks for coaching-led sales, deep listening, early fee positioning, handling objections through collaboration (not convincing), and building stronger businesses through emotional detachment and authenticity.

🎯 What You’ll Learn:

— Why agents fear sales (and how to shift your mindset)
 — How to reframe objections as opportunities
 — How to introduce fees early without feeling pushy
 — How emotional detachment = better outcomes
 — Why curiosity > charisma in great conversations
 — The difference between pushy selling and ethical influence
 — How to win more referrals through self-awareness
 — What the best agents do differently (and why you can too)

Whether you're self-employed or working within a traditional model, this conversation will help you build confidence, reduce anxiety around selling, and close more deals — the right way.

Matt shares stories from the field, lessons from Expert Empires, and decades of coaching experience — all focused on helping you become more effective and more human in your sales process.

If you want to remove the pressure, the pushiness, and the fear from your sales process — this is a must-listen.

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Transcript

Welcome to the latest episode of the Elite Agent Masterclass. Today, Jack and I have the great pleasure of being joined by Mr. Matt Selby. And before we hit record, we've known Matt now for, it's gotta be four years coming up, three, four years. And Jack goes... What's Matt's title? And we don't know. All we know is that Matt is an exceptionally good salesperson. He's really good at coaching sales, but he's very, very good at doing it in a very non-sleazy way. And unfortunately, sales can have a very sleazy connotation, right, Matt? Yeah, absolutely. Firstly, thank you for both having me. Yeah, honoured. It's actually interesting because of the relationship we've got. This feels like a very professional setting for having me as a guest. And I absolutely agree. I hesitated getting into sales because of the negative perception that it's got and they don't always have the best reputation when you're a salesperson and I think that's um it's still a thing now I think it was even more of a thing back if you used to look ten years ago um there's always the negative perception of car sales or um the concern which is window selling yeah interestingly my dad has always uh I say always recently in his last uh working career being a car salesman and that was where I thought about getting involved in sales I thought I had a negative perception on it so I steered clear was looking for something else and then eventually the inevitable just came around and I accepted my uh my direction and my fate and then I'm really grateful that I did get into it because I was then made aware that it can be done in a nice relaxing calm ethical way that is to ensure that it's a good fit for everyone involved. We found that from working with you, Matt. So just for context for those listening in, Jack and I know Matt through our relationship with Expert Empires as a mastermind. And we thought that Matt would be an amazing addition to the podcast, the value that he can share around sales and closing more deals and delivering negotiation in a much more win for everybody way. But I think it would be really useful before we dive into the nitty gritty of sales, negotiation, et cetera, to understand a little bit more about you because how long have you been with Expert Empires and what was your backstory before that? How did you get to where you are now? So I have been with Expert Empire since two thousand nineteen. And before I was working for Expert Empire, I was actually a little bit lost. And I mentioned a minute ago about questioning whether sales was something I should consider from Birmingham. You can probably tell from the strong accents from Birmingham and grew up in Sheldon, an area where you will either go down a professional route do really well or there's a lot of distractions and in the environment I have unfortunately had some of my friends that chose the wrong path some family members that chose the wrong path where they ended up getting themselves in a load of trouble getting involved in things that they shouldn't have and as a consequence is um set them up for um yeah penalties and ended up in jail unfortunately some of my friends are no longer with us and that was an option for me when I was growing up and thankfully I was in a position where I found sport so sport was something that I was passionate about and it just kept me focused motivated and uh yeah I channeled my sport from a younger age so um yeah local brummie boy from sheldon and yeah I think sport and sales, there's a lot of collaboration between the two. I'm sure we'll come on to that, Matt, in a little while. I suppose one of the reasons we joined Expert Empires was because it's completely different to what we do in our industry. And that was one of the reasons I thought it'd be really good to get you on the podcast, because you're going to come at things from a completely different angle that probably many estate agents haven't really considered before. The first thing I want to ask though is, Since your time at Expert Empires back in twenty nineteen and to now, what have you learned since being in that environment and what have you developed and what have you seen about yourself, about business? What are the biggest lessons you've taken? I think to nail it down into one is going to be extremely challenging. I am extremely grateful for the fact that I got introduced to sales and this environment. As you said, it's about development, not only in your business, as a person. The key thing that I believe, which is separate to sales, that I had to work on, although I was competitive, although I was ambitious, although I had the best will in the world to try and continue to grow and build some amazing things, was my biggest personal journey has been on one of our vows, which is we practice self-awareness and humility. And I think because of the environment that I grew up in where it was very natural to get involved in drugs crime end up in prison I think that when you come from an environment like that that self-awareness is not something that is even considered so um when I um fortunately found the opportunity to work with expert empires in one of the core values is we practice self-awareness and humility and the journey that I've been on developing as a human rather than even worrying about sales has been absolutely massive. And I think when I look back and have conversations with people that I used to go to school with, they're like, wow, you've changed. This isn't the old Matt that we remember. And I think it's because of working on my personal development, working on self-awareness. So I think if I had to hone it in on one, it would be that. And then the skill set of learning sales is just like, you can hear I'm already excited about it. That is something that has and will continue to change my life forever because it's a skill that if you've got that in your locker, then You can be chucked into any industry. You can go into any continent, country. And if you know how to sell, then you'll be fine regardless. I think it's so true. And I think I want to touch on that because that ability to sell, again, coming back to that word sales and selling, and it's just being able to communicate human to human, right? That is all it is. And understanding the human that is in front of you, understanding what it is that they want and need from the conversation that you're having, and then providing them with the solution that best fits what they want. It's not really selling, it's communication. I absolutely love it. And I think because of, again, it took a little bit of time to get my head around this because of what my previous perception was. And then when I found them, there was a way to do it, which was, it's almost like a coaching strategy. The way that we sell is asking lots of powerful questions, helping get a better understanding of And then at that point, you've either found out enough information from the other person and understood their problems. And at that point, you have a solution for it or you don't. And I think that both are absolutely fine. And it's the process of committing to understand the person, what they're looking for, which is the most exciting. I literally got off a call with someone earlier. and asked them a lot of questions and it turned out they actually didn't need what we did and I was like it was a fantastic call and they made a connection and a referral for someone who actually probably does need what we do so um yeah I think just the the opportunity to commit to understanding others and then at that point it's whether the solution comes in And that is what makes it much more ethical and what makes it much more, it takes the sleaze out of the sales, right? Yeah. I think that's a big word in our industry, especially, and I'm sure car sales as well. But yeah, that sleazy way of selling, it's doing things completely differently, isn't it? And I think that's changed a lot over the years. And I think Really understanding what people are looking for and giving them the right advice is much more important. And we touched on it just before we hit record. But it's knowing whether there's an opportunity there or not and not having that desperation, I suppose, isn't it? Absolutely. And the way that that comes is from asking a lot of questions and committing to understanding the person and then being able to look yourself in the mirror at the end of the day and say, did I truly commit to understanding this person's problem? And if so, then did we make any progress on it? But if you go to Ben and you're like, I could have done more, I could have asked more questions, then you don't know whether they needed your services or whether they didn't. And that's when it's like, that's when it feels frustrating. And yeah, it can be... Yeah, quite a frustrating game when you do that. So I think it's about turning your courage dial up and leaning into asking those questions as well. There's been many times where in my earlier stages that I'd be in a conversation and I think the more that you do it, like anything in life, the more volume that you practice with, then you start to realise that you can actually ask a lot more questions and go further than you actually realise and Again, it's about doing it in a way that feels natural. I actually deliver a framework that we use here. And the framework itself is about connecting with the other person. So it's not an order and sequence you have to do. Step one, step two, step three, four. They're just guiding principles purely on how to connect with somebody. And then at that point is when you make the decision on whether you should actually sell to them or not. It's interesting because obviously we've experienced you delivering your framework around selling. We've been on the receiving end of that and we became members of Expert Empires because of it. But also then in the teaching of it and then hearing how simple those frameworks are. But as I've listened to you speak then, there's one thing that I probably haven't connected dots on in communicating with you in the past or in any of the training sessions that we've attended. And that is that... I think for most people that are listening in, if they sat there and thought to themselves, what does selling mean to me? Selling means trying to convince someone else that what you have is right for them. So they get into this mode where I'm trying to talk this person into doing something that I believe is right, but they may not want it. Whereas in reality, what you're saying there is rather than convince them, just ask really good questions to understand whether they need it or not. And then simply ask, This is me paraphrasing and I guess interpreting what you've said. If they give the answers that then mean that what you're selling is a good fit, then essentially they've sold themselves. One hundred percent. And it's their decision. So it's at that point, I use it like you don't go into a counsellor and the counsellor turns around and goes... Divorce. What they do is, and that might not be the right thing, but they ask a series of questions. They don't dictate, they don't tell, they don't command. They ask a lot of powerful questions that help you have a realization. And then it is your choice on whether you take action upon your realization. And it's the same when you're in a sales experience, that if someone is a professional and they can ask you a lot of powerful questions and that then you have a realisation that you do or do not need support with it, then you are the person that then takes action. So for me, I look at it like, I've used a few different analogies, but it's almost like a recruitment business. Like my job is to, I've got a service at the end and my job is to find people that may be a good fit for that service. end product and my job is to ask them a series of questions and if it is then I will recruit and introduce if not that's okay I've asked you a load of questions thank you who else do you know which is exactly what happened on that call earlier as I mentioned so yeah and I think we knew a lot more um When you're not as emotionally attached, it feels easier to do that because you don't need to get the sale. You can just commit. You can enjoy it. You can have fun with connecting and getting to know each other. And I think at that point, it just takes all the pressure off. I know I'm hijacking here, Jack. I'm so sorry. But I have got a question straight off of what Matt said, because I know that there will be people listening into this because I know them personally. And they are people that will get emotionally attached. They are people that do take it very personally. And there'll probably be people listening in right now whilst they're on their drive somewhere or they're sitting at home making their coffee or whatever and go, that's me, that's me. Matt, how do you help people emotionally detach from either the result or whatever it is they're delivering? Good question. And I would be lying if I said that there were times where I haven't got this wrong. Like, let's face it, I'm passionate, competitive. Like, there's been times where it's impacted my life. And if I'd had an amazing day at work and made loads of sales, I'd go home happiest person in the world. And then if I'd had a bad day, I could be quite grumpy. And I think there's two layers to that answer. I think, first and foremost, it's like just being... self-aware enough to take a moment and look at well if I have a good day at work or a bad day at work what are the other things that I've got going on around me that are amazing and that is for me since becoming a father and having my little boy so I'm still going to get the opportunity to go home spend time with my fiance spend time playing with my little boy and whatever has happened within the day I can't really I can I can control but it shouldn't make a difference on how I show up when I go home so I think that's something that I have worked on and developed in the last couple of years and then I think from a sales perspective focusing on when we are actually in our day-to-day work it's to have enough opportunity and enough conversation that you're operating from a place of abundance rather than scarcity. So what I mean by that is to give you certainty on, let's say, what you're aiming for with your targets. And again, your world is your expertise. I might not be as familiar with it. However, we like to say that, let's say, for example, you have a target of ten new clients. that to feel the way that we just described, And to get to that point is you should have one point five times over your target in quotes. So let's say, for example, if it was ten properties that you're looking to sell within the space of the quarter, then it would be a case of, well, we need twenty five in the initial quarter in our pipeline so that we can be in that place that I just said, which is operating from a place of abundance. Yeah, I think for me it's having enough opportunities so that you are not operating from scarcity. that I want to go back a little bit to something that you mentioned a couple of minutes ago I feel I want to put some emphasis on this because it's so so important you mentioned um qualifying the clients making sure that they are interested in the services you offer I think for a lot of agents most agents will go out to an appointment to speak with a homeowner who's thinking of selling um and The only option is for them to try and get it on the market. Whereas I think there is an option where they might not be the right agent for that particular client. But then you also, following that, mentioned about asking for a recommendation referral. How important is that? Because I think there's not enough estate agents that do that and ask for a recommendation referral off the back of someone who you haven't done business with, let alone the people that you have done business with. I think to answer the second part, because that's what's come from like, that is the easiest opportunity to create your own pipeline rather than having to rely on investing in any marketing or doing all the follow ups on your Instagrams and your social medias. Like if you've got someone there in front of you, the likelihood that they have had a conversation with somebody else about moving is very high. And I can speak from experience. We've just moved about I think it was four months ago, we just moved property. And because of that, all our family members are discussing moving property. All of our other friends are discussing moving property. So they don't tend to, and again, I'm making a sweeping generalization that they don't tend to always move just individually on their own. That can be a bit of a trend with its friends, family, and the chances that they've spoke to somebody else are extremely hard. And if you miss out on that opportunity, it could be double the amount of sale opportunities to you by just asking a simple question oh thank you so much for having me attend the property today just whilst I've got you who else have you spoken to recently that has also considered moving the property and like that question can open up so many more conversations for you um I think because there's so much that people need to take from this. And I just want to just highlight some almost bullet points of what you've said, because, you know, you made a statement just now, which ties into this as well. And that is to operate from a place of abundance, not scarcity. So it's how can they create an environment where they are operating from that place of abundance and not scarcity. So they're led with positivity, not fear. And I think then that ties back to what you're saying there is. If you've had, and I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes, so I'm inviting anyone listening to do the same. I'm sitting with a client that I've spent the last hour, hour and a half with, getting on really well with, asking really powerful questions, getting to understand their needs and requirements. And at the end of that conversation, I've then had the humility and the bravery to say, do you know what? I've really enjoyed our time together today. But for these reasons, I actually don't think that we would necessarily be a good fit for you. But let me make a recommendation for someone who I think would be perfectly fitted to you. And whilst I'm at it, can I ask you a question? Who else do you know? Because you've built that relationship and then you've been so humble in your delivery. How can the client not want to then help? And I think that's it. And I think that also when you do make the introduction, that the relationships you start to build and the strength off the back of them is the client that you're sat down with will massively respect you. The person that you introduce that actually might be a better fit to help them out will massively respect you. And it comes circle back round that they might then have a conversation where you're introduced or... And I think that's it. I think it's when it comes to entering a... what we call sales conversation we're not trying to get anywhere we're just looking to understand and then like I said provide a solution at the end of it and um I think I've spoken to a few other clients in the past and they talk about sometimes in estate, I think, is it dabblers? You get people that have kind of got their feet in and they're not one hundred percent sure. And I think if you're in a position where you try and speed that process up and take somebody down a journey in a direction that they're not one hundred percent committed to themselves, then it's going to be a frustrating journey. What I mean by a frustrating journey is it's like getting somebody look in normal sales that is challenging but we're talking about having people relocate and move properties and on top of that I think it can cause quite a bit of headache and uh client experience challenges further down the line and everything just seems to drag its feet whereas when you've done it properly you've asked a ton of powerful questions that they should then be in a position where they're excited clear on what happens next and everybody's on the same page so um yeah I think Being okay and letting people just take the decision on how far they'd like to travel down that journey. And then being okay with saying like, it's actually probably not a good fit for you. Who else do you know? That everybody just has a lot more respect for each other. So yeah, referral is so important. Agreed, agreed. So there's a point where I suppose understanding if they're the right fit is really important. But those that are showing interest and are really keen on what you offer, yet they come up with objections. How do you overcome those? For example, there's a lot of sellers out there that probably say it's too expensive, it's too much for me. How do you overcome those objections? Yeah, and I think it's really interesting because... them in the negotiation, their job is to, and sometimes that might be genuine, but even if they thought that your investment percentages or figures were absolutely perfect, it is their job to look after getting a good deal, protecting their funds, their financial scenario and I think they are not meant to come up and go that is a fantastic deal I'll take ten more please in fact put another ten percent on top of it because that was just amazing but they are meant to say the opposite where they slow the journey down they look to get the best deal as possible and um I think there's two things I think there's getting ahead of any stores and objections which is something that I always personally like to do so early stages in any sort of conversation is understanding their driving factors for wanting to move house What could be some obstacles and challenges that would get in the place? Positioning investment percentages and fees from the very get go so that they are filled with information from the beginning and we're not in a position where we leave it up until the last minute and it seems like a shock and a surprise. So now if you've told everybody that from the get go and then you've gone through the process together, asked a lot of questions and then we get to the end and they're still coming up with stores and objections. we now know that it isn't really just about the stores and objections and the commissions because they already had all that information before they decided to come this far with us so it's what's the truth underneath that and that's when it's important to connect to um understanding So yeah, long-winded answer. I like that though, because most agents will have been trained on not giving the fees over the phone and not giving the fees until the very end of the appointment. So you spend all that time going through what you offer and then it's the very last part of the whole process that they give the fees over. And I suppose that doesn't really give complete honesty and transparency, does it? Whereas giving them at the start, they know what they're expecting. It doesn't then feel as though it's a challenge or it doesn't feel as difficult to overcome when you're leaving it right at the very end. Well, there's a couple of things that happen here. It's if you are... a position where you're holding back information and then you travel the distance with this potential client and then that information is the thing that becomes the reason that you don't end up working together then that's when you're trying to overcome and get get one over somebody that's not what it's about it's if you can give them the information at the beginning they've already had it then we decide to work through this uh the journey together if there's a few concerns that because they've already had the information and we've gone through the journey we're more likely to come up with a collaborative approach on how we would solve this and find in a sweet spot rather than us having to try and get one over so if you think about the positioning of the person at the end of this customer journey if they are in a position where they haven't had information and then you're having to work really hard and it just all feels like it's a bit rushed at the end then it doesn't feel that good for them like that actually feels like well um they're on the back foot and likely so if you're on the back foot then you'd be a little bit protective uh defensive and that's not easy you don't want to be in that position in sales because then it You just, you're hitting your head off the wall. Whereas if you give them the information at the beginning, we then travel through the journey. And then at that point, there's a couple of concerns and questions that they're not in a position where they feel that they have been restricted of information. Like this is already information they knew at the beginning and they've already decided to travel this distance with us. So I think, positioning fees early and there's also um it's a bit more advanced than um it's a big topic but there's a lot of psychology behind it and um we all like to use the example of dating now I haven't dated in six years so when it comes to dating I'm not an expert but the psychology about being okay with not needing something it's very similar in date like if you turned up to I'm tidying up my analogy here, so don't get myself in any trouble. If you own a position where you're operating from a place of abundance and you're not needy, desperate, and wanting anything, and you can position your fees from the beginning, it's a lot more attractive and positions you a lot better from the beginning in comparison of if you're very needy, very like... Desperate. desperate if you're on edge the whole way through and you're feeling like holding information back and what happens if they find out this about me and then it all comes up at the end then it's like whoa that is an absolute red flag alarm bells are ringing and that's why I think it just psychologically is a lot more attractive if you can just be good with who you are present fees and percentages from the get-go And it's up to them at that point if they want to continue making any progress with you. I think we've experienced both sets of people in the dating world as well. So I've got the analogy. It's like, imagine telling someone that you've got a few personal things that have gone on in your life. Or if you went on a first date, you're like, yeah, I've got kids. And then they decided to continue the date and you went out a couple more times and then... you get to the end, then it's natural. Whereas if you go out on a date, you hold back that information, you go out on a couple of dates, you're trending in the wrong direction, then you drop a bombshell like, oh yeah, by the way, I've got kids as well. It's a bit of a shock and it can cause some concern and fear in the other person on what else are you holding back from me? And the trust just decreases. So the more open, transparent you can be from the beginning, then you're setting yourself up for a better relationship and a more sustainable journey. I think you cleaned the analogy up really well, Matt. And I think for those listening in, they'll really appreciate the way you delivered it. And then using the child analogy just there as well, I think it's very relatable and very well delivered. But I also think for those listening in, it's interesting because I think a lot of when we've had conversations in the past, a lot of clients you work with come from such diverse business types and backgrounds and everything else that It's quite universal that there's always some form of objection that people may well have, or there's some sort of challenge to overcome. But I think specifically for a state agency, a lot of agents listening to this will go, that's all well and good. In your industry, you might be able to position fees and costings at the beginning, but in a state agency, it doesn't work like that. You need to deliver the fee at the end because someone else will do it cheaper, right? So I just want to pull on that thread a little bit because that's universal. That's every industry. There's always someone out there that will do it cheaper, no matter the industry. You want to have your extension built on the back of your house? There will be a builder that does it cheaper than you. You could do it for free and there'll probably be someone that will pay to do it. So the point I want to get out here is a lot of estate agents in their training will have been trained to convince. Not to collaborate, not to build a relationship, but to convince. And so by holding the feedback, it means that you've got an hour-ish with the client in their home to convince them that you are worth more. Not ask good questions, simply convince them. We do this, we do that, we'll put your house there. Rather than collaborate and ask great questions. Because I'm sitting here thinking to myself, if someone rings me up, and by the way, this happens all the time for estate agents. And they go, what's your fee? And that's the first question they ask. In my head, I used to go, fuck, how do I get around? Forgive my language. How do I get around this? Now, in the last couple of years, I've looked at it and gone, okay, I'm going to ask some questions because I need to qualify whether or not we're going to be a good fit. Because there's no point in me wasting an hour of my time coming and sitting in your living room if all you're interested in is the cheapest fee. I may as well just disqualify you myself. One hundred percent. And I think if you can position that from the beginning, firstly, thank you for showing your interest. Great question. Our percentages range from I'm making this up by the way. X and Y. And before we make any progress, the first thing that happens is we ask you a few questions. If we're successful on this call, then we'd consider a visit to the property. Before we do that, let me ask you a few questions. And then you take massive control and ownership of the call itself and ask them questions and get them to qualify themselves rather than you being on the back foot going, oh, it's three percent. There's something that I took away from, so the sales day that Salvin and I put together, I think we're part of it once a month. So occasionally every few months we'll come and attend and it's great because it helps us frame different questions. So one of the things that we took away and shared with a lot of our agents positioning that fee from the start. So we're usually between one and a half and two percent. What's more important to you, though, is it having the cheapest fee or achieving the best price for your property and then allowing them to come back? Because if it's the cheapest fee, then we're not the right agent for them. If they want to get the best price for their property, then they need to invest in a good agent that's going to help them do that. So a lot of the questions and the frameworks that we've learned from ECA We've helped position that with our agents. It's important to make sure you've got some great questions, isn't it? And that's why you mentioned earlier about talking about powerful questions. And I think that's what you shared there, Jack, is the opportunity to, although the percentages and the investments are important, it's to ask questions and understand what are the other important things that we're going to consider whilst working together throughout this process? Or maybe we don't. And again, if you are the cheapest in the industry and you are depends on what you're looking to aspire to be and attract, but there is no single advantage to being the cheapest in the industry because there's only down from there. Whereas if you can hold a strong, certain positive positioning at the beginning, then it's again, going back to the not needing, not desperate, more attractive position, and then acting like a professional and asking loads of powerful questions about the other things that are important is when they start to build trust on the experience that they're getting with you. hundred percent. So much within that is it can boil back to like a collection of words. You know, I try and when we do these podcasts, there's obviously a lot of value we get from them as well as the fact that we want to share this with others. But I try and distill it and go, what are the kind of three to five words that I would take from what's been shared? And You've said it a couple of times, and I do think that it ties into what we're talking about here in terms of delivery of fees. But it's all about self-awareness, isn't it? It's all about being self-aware enough to go, I don't need this. I'd like to do business with you. But if I don't do business with you, there'll be someone else that I will do business with. So you want to hop on my bus and come with me and we'll do this journey together and we'll do it on the right terms so that everyone gets the result that they deserve. Then great. If not, that's cool. My bus is still moving forward. I have enough fairness and comfort to deliver that. And I think that when they sense that, one of the things that we focus on is how does it feel energetically? And if you feel energetically that you're having to work extremely hard and try and get somebody to do something, then it just becomes that it's frustrating. It's a way more energy required from you when it comes to that actual process. And that's where you start to get what we call buyer's remorse or a little bit of resentment. And the energy that you then experience with them will be very different. So I think if you can get it right from the beginning, then have the self-awareness of being open, transparent, positioning fees, asking lots of questions, that the energy that you experience at the end of that conversation is better for everybody involved. And I think that when you do agree to work together, that's when the magic happens. There's three things that I've took away from this conversation and it links to what James just said, but they all kind of link together. So that self-awareness is number one. Then you mentioned earlier about having enough opportunities. And I think that only comes from having the courage to ask enough questions. Those are the three things I've taken away from it, which I think would be really, really valuable for people listening. And I think just on that point, Jack, that then having the, I suppose it comes altogether, self-awareness on being able to say that this probably isn't the right qualified lead for me. so that you're qualifying them. And what I think it's easiest to forget is if you try and hold on to that lead and you end up booking an hour in their house, which isn't a qualified lead, you're taking a ton of time out of your day where you could then just open up the opportunity to have a conversation with someone who is qualified. So having the self-awareness on whether they qualify or not, and then getting into the point of operating from abundance with lots of powerful conversations and asking lots of questions to commit to understanding. What an episode full of absolute gold. It's really important, Matt, that we don't end this without being able to give people access to you should they wish. So how can people connect with you? Is it LinkedIn, Instagram? Instagram, and not as simple. My at is msalb, so S-E-L-B-S, seven. So Instagram is at msalb, seven, Matt Salve. So yeah, thank you. And I can share a link with you guys if you want as well. um this was um yeah I I think because I've always had the opportunity of being fortunate enough to work with you guys um just to understand some of the challenges that some of the estate agents is going through and I think with a few small tweaks and changes it can make such a difference so yeah just really appreciate being invited so thank you for having me thank you for joining us